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Swindon/Kemble Bottleneck


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#41 Joker

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Posted 22 October 2006 - 02:16 AM

View Postphyllus_jones, on Oct 20 2006, 10:16 AM, said:

Maybe it will be possible for a summary of comments at the meeting to be made, and a copy sent to NR?
I doubt it, somehow. The speakers were very keen on encouraging the audience to contact their councillors, and as one audience member pointed out, the more people you work through, the more opportunities there are for the message to be watered down, if not lost altogether.

Anyway, I went to hear about the Parkway Station, and in one sense, I wasn't disappointed. In every other sense, though. The speaker, Mike Obst, Principal (Rail) Transport Planner of Gloucestershire County Council, didn't mention the environmental impact on the Green Belt at all. He displayed a chart on which he claimed that environmental concerns had been addressed with a tick in the relevant box but, as a lady pointed out, it didn't look to me like that box had been ticked, either. I'd love to know who gave the scheme that clearance.

#42 alan

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Posted 22 October 2006 - 02:11 PM

Hi Joker, I am glad that you were at the meeting but which audience member were you? I was at the back ( arriving a little late I fear due to traffic and parking issues ) but could not readily identify either Phyllus Jones or Christian Wolmar being there even though we did have Dr Clive Mowforth of Cam & Dursley fame. I was hoping to chat to these people afterward but sadly this did not happen. Perhaps next time!

#43 phyllus_jones

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 09:38 AM

Alan

I was there. Back row on the left side. Found it all quite interesting. I am not sure where the First Great Western person got his information for saying the the Swindon/Kemble second track had "a 50/50 chance of being put back within 10 years". Christian Wolmar forwarded an e-mail saying that NR told him that things looked positive on it and that it could go ahead as early as 2008/09. Maybe FGW's information is old?

I couldn't stay around after the meeting concluded at 4pm because I had to go somewhere before catching the London train. If you hear of further meetings, please post them and I'll come down again. As far as NR, Pat at the Swindon office phoned me on Thursday to indicate that she wished that NR had known about the meeting so it could have sent someone. I'm wondering if NR could arrange a meeting in Gloucester, or be part of some transportation seminar, to let the public know its plans for Gloucestershire. Do you know of any other talks or seminars planned for transportation in Gloucester, to which NR could be invited?

Who was the MP in the left front row. Compared with his photo, it didn't seem to be David Drew. Was it Lawrence Robertson from Tewkesbury?

#44 alan

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 02:41 PM

:) Hi Phyllus

Glad you made the meeting but sorry I did not have time to introduce myself. I arrived late due to being stuck behind a bus and also parking issues. I'll keep everyone posted about similar events and in the meantime here is a Laurence Robertson link. Was he the man perhaps?



http://www.conservat...p;personID=4583

#45 Joker

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 04:17 PM

View Postalan, on Oct 22 2006, 03:11 PM, said:

Hi Joker, I am glad that you were at the meeting but which audience member were you?
If you were at the back and late, you may have been only two seats from me. Dark haired, asked a question, good one if I recall correctly? Actually, you may have been one seat away, only slightly late and seated next to a friend?

Phyllus, I only saw three women at the meeting, is that left looking towards the stage, or from the front? If the latter, you were the lady I mentioned, but you'd probably have realised this, so you must have been on the other side, away from the door. We skulking back row types, eh? ;)

View Posttigerroar, on Oct 23 2006, 04:07 PM, said:

Christian Wolmar has made his column about the Bottleneck in this weeks Rail magazine!
There's a bit of a delay for articles to go online, but some of the older stuff may prove interesting...

http://www.christian...ail/index.shtml

#46 Joker

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Posted 24 October 2006 - 02:07 AM

That would explain the back row thing, I guess, but it's still darn misleading. I'm quite sure Phyllus is a woman's name...

#47 phyllus_jones

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Posted 24 October 2006 - 09:06 AM

Joker

Phyllis is the woman's name. Didn't you spot the difference of the "us" ending, as in alumnus? Phyllus is an old geezer's name. You don't see too many young geezers with the name.

#48 Joker

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Posted 24 October 2006 - 11:16 AM

I Googled the actual word to be sure, and I only got females, like Phyllus Garrard, or indeterminate. No worries, though, I'm quite willing to take your word for it, just saying that, like Ophelia, I was 'the more deceived'. All cleared up now :)

#49 alan

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Posted 24 October 2006 - 02:44 PM

:) Hi Joker, and thank you for your kind words. That was me at the back with the dark hair ( what's left of it ) glasses and yellow shirt. I asked about possibly adding one or two extra tracks between Gloucester and Churchdown. We'll all have to buy RAIL now!

#50 Railfriend

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Posted 25 October 2006 - 04:42 PM

It would be a good idea to have a meeting in Gloucester with people from Network Rail. We'd be able to learn from the "horse's mouth" (so to speak!) just what NR's plans are for near future work in Gloucester and the surrounding areas. It wouldn't have to be a meeting tied to any other agenda, just NR talking to the public. I wonder if NR has a group of speakers who go out to talk to interested groups in the communities.

#51 phyllus_jones

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 11:18 AM

Last Friday evening, 3 November, I attended a talk at Tate Britain by Christian Wolmar on the history of London Underground. Before the talk I had a chance to speak with him about his October newsletter and his discussion with Network Rail on the Swindon-Kemble redoubling.

He told me that NR was very enthusiastic to get the project underway and asked me if I had seen any surveyors yet on the track! (I told him that I hadn't.) Apparently NR has had a lot of enquiries from the public on the project, and it is now on the priority list. He told me that he has taken a special interest in it and will be keeping an eye on its progress. Not a bad result for a problem about which he was not even aware just a few months ago!!

Mr Wolmar mentioned that the Government is looking to invest a huge amount in the British rail system, since it sees it as a way to relieve road congestion and push the new "green agenda".

Yesterday I went down to Winchester. The return train to London in the late afternoon was absolutely packed. Twelve cars, and still people standing. I couldn't help but reflect how sad it was that the Winchester to Didcot line (through Newbury) had been pulled up, since now trains from Southampton to points north like Manchester have to go through Basingstoke and Reading (already on overload). I can see that line having to be relaid. There are probably many other lines that, if still in place, could have been used to take the load off the present system.

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 01:36 PM

Being of a younger generation that some of the folks on here I find it hard to beleive that in the 60's they thought it would be a good idea to pull up all of those railways. Such a shame...

#53 Joker

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 12:54 AM

The Wolmar article is online now:

Has Network Rail changed its spots?

Rail 551, October 25 2006

Everyone’s familiar with the double standards applied by government to road and rail schemes, but CHRISTIAN WOLMAR has detected signs that the pace of line and station reopenings could be picking up.


IT’S rough getting between Swindon and Gloucester. On the railways, the trains have to negotiate a 14-mile stretch which was singled in the 1970s in some misguided cost-cutting exercise initiated by British Rail under pressure from the Treasury. It is now a terrible bottleneck, frequently delaying trains.

On the roads, there is also a bottleneck, what a local Tory MP recently called a ‘missing link’ - a three-mile part of the A417 ten miles from Gloucester which is not dual carriageway and causes traffic jams.

This gap was the subject of a lengthy debate in Parliament on October 12 prompted by that Tory MP, Geoffrey Clifton-Brown, who argued that the lack of an adequate road was a severe barrier to economic development in the region and that the missing link causes traffic jams and accidents.

He pointed out that you could drive from Palermo in southern Italy to Scotland on dual carriageway roads with the exception of this three-mile gap (though he failed to explain why you’d want to undertake this 3,000 mile journey via Gloucester!). There is much rat-running through pretty Cotswold villages in an effort to avoid the A417 and, when there is a diversion, massive 44-tonne lorries have to negotiate their way through these bucolic idylls.

There is a reason why the road has never been improved in the area. It runs up the sharp Brockworth Hill, and has to negotiate a 275- degree bend, so any improvement would be expensive. There have been suggestions of a tunnel, but that was rejected, and now there is a plan to dual the section largely along the existing alignment.

But currently it is not on the Highways Agency’s list of priorities and that is why Clifton-Brown obtained the debate. The response from the Roads Minister, Stephen Ladyman, could not have been more helpful and supportive: “The government and I recognise the importance of improving this key strategic route,” he smarmed, a rather curious phrasing as I thought he was part of the government.

He went on over paragraphs and paragraphs of Hansard about how various things had been tried, how, regretfully, they had been rejected, and how the Highways Agency had now been asked to look at the whole area again. “That work will not be constrained by what has already been considered, and the agency will adopt a holistic approach to ensure that all options are thoroughly explored,” he said.

Can you imagine old Alistair Darling or even his successor, Douglas Alexander, talking about an expensive rail scheme in this almost loving way? Interestingly, in the middle of the parliamentary debate another Tory MP, Lawrence Robertson (Tewkesbury), intervened to say that the road link was particularly important because rail services to the area were so poor. And indeed they are. The bottleneck on the railways is, in many ways, far worse than that on the roads. Only one train can ever enter the single-line section, which takes 14 minutes to cover and therefore limits capacity to a total of four trains an hour.

Any delay or breakdown instantly causes chaos. This happened in the summer because the line is the main diversionary route when the Severn Tunnel - where the battle against According is permanent and precarious - is closed. When this happened in August, according to RAIL reader Philip Jones who travels regularly to Stroud, the result “was true pandemonium at Swindon as all the South Wales trains as well as the regular trains (which include freight) had to share the bottleneck.”

So contrast the lengthy debate on the need to improve the road, and the measured and courteous response from the minister, with his reply to a question from David Drew, the Stroud MP who has campaigned energetically to improve local rail services. On September 12 2005, he asked Ladyman about the chances of redoubling the track and was given short shrift: “The SRA made an assessment of the demand for rail travel on the Swindon-Gloucester corridor as part of its recently-published Great Western Route Utilisation Strategy (RUS), and concluded that the infrastructure was adequate to support the forecast demand for the duration of the RUS period (to 2012).” He added that the issue would be reassessed by Network Rail, when signalling renewals for the route became due, some time between 2012 and 2017.

This was pretty dishonest, actually, since the RUS said that its terms of reference ‘precluded infrastructure schemes’. The message, though, was pretty clear. None of this is anything to do with me and in any case it’s all too expensive. So should we conclude that, as usual, rail seems to be losing out and the perennial love affair of government with the roads is continuing.

Well, this is where it gets interesting, and the news is surprisingly positive. When I approached NR, I fully expected that the company would give me the same brush-off and there was no hope for this scheme. However, what I discovered suggests that Network Rail really has changed its spots. It says the scheme is currently in the first stage of the GRIP (the eight-stage Guide to Railway Investment Projects) and a feasibility study is being carried out. That might not sound very encouraging but, according to the company, work could start as early as 2008/09. Apparently NR realises the importance of the line, not least as a diversionary route given that the Severn Tunnel is always going to be a somewhat dodgy piece of infrastructure.

Network Rail will not actually use the words ‘definite’ or ‘commitment’ but the tone of what it is saying suggests there is definite hope for the campaigners. There are, of course, a whole host of difficulties ahead. No costing is available so far and the work may prove to be more difficult than expected. When the track was singled, it was moved to the middle because of concerns about weak embankments, and both moving the track and shoring up the embankments will add to the costs. When Chiltern and Railtrack redoubled just nine miles of plain line track between Bicester and Aynho junctions three years ago, the bill was a staggering £60m.Therefore, it would not take much for a relatively modest scheme like Swindon to Kemble to reach three figures quite easily.

Then there is the issue of compensation, the craziest aspect of the current fragmented structure of the railways. NR has to pay compensation for disruption to operators when it is carrying out work to make their services run more efficiently. How mad is that? Yet, by then, First Great Western is likely to be struggling with its onerous franchise, making the company desperate to wrest any revenue it can from NR.

And even when the line does get redoubled, Great Western is likely to want to see a reduction in its premium payments for running any extra trains that would be allowed by this enhanced capacity as they may not pay for themselves.

Network Rail claims it can carry out these enhancements because of the efficiency savings it made, worth £200m, plus another pot of £200m it created for small projects. They are vital to a growing railway, sometimes more important than big projects, because they represent easy gains, or ‘low-hanging fruit’ in the business jargon, for quite significant capacity increases. The successful completion of many of these small and medium-size schemes would demonstrate that NR is serious about delivering enhancements in a way that seemed out of the question a year or two ago. British Rail could undertake these schemes in a much cheaper and simpler way, because the railway was much more straightforward and there weren’t all these ‘stakeholders’.

Of course, its critics would argue that BR was in the business of retrenching rather than expanding, but in its latter days it did at least look at the possibility of expanding the railways. The pace of station and line reopenings slowed dramatically after privatisation and now, at last, there is hope that it will speed up again. There are dozens of worthwhile schemes with strong business cases that only require the will and a bit of cash. For example, I was recently sent the proposal to reopen Kenilworth station between Coventry and Leamington Spa which would provide three times the amount of benefits compared with its £4m cost. Network Rail’s ability to bring these schemes to fruition is an important test of whether the current structure is a viable way to run the railway.

#54 phyllus_jones

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Posted 02 December 2006 - 03:38 PM

I got a very positive letter from David Drew, MP Stroud, yesterday. He feels that if those interested keep the pressure on Network Rail and the powers that be, the Swindon/Kemble double-tracking will take place. I guess we'll just have to wait and see. If anyone sees a survey crew on the line, please don't forget to post the news!!

phyl

#55 sikejsudjek

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Posted 18 December 2006 - 03:10 PM

Interesting discussion,

I have to say that the singling of the Kemble - Cirencester section was without doubt one of the most brainless things ever done to the railway network, seconded only by the continued refusal to redouble it. It would be interesting to know how much (if anything) is saved by singling the line - with welded rail maintenance is minimal, and single track requires much more complex signalling infrastructure.

This route is needed for freight as well as passenger transport. It is needed as a diversionary route, and to improve service reliability on the Cheltenham - London route. The cost of putting it back is peanuts when compared to building a new road - plus all the embankments and bridges are already there. Realigning track isn't that difficult with modern P.Way machinery, nor for that matter is relaying it.

This should be a transport priority for the rail network - it benefits much more than just passengers from Gloucester and Cheltenham. I bet the timetablers for the TOC's/Network Rail would love it back as double track too !

#56 alan

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Posted 20 December 2006 - 01:30 PM

Good to hear from you sikejsudjek - some very intersting thoughts. Readers of this thread might also like to visit:


http://glostransport...futur211006.htmRailfuture Gloucester

#57 Railfriend

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Posted 20 December 2006 - 06:58 PM

sikejsudjek

The pressure on Network Rail to re-double Swindon-Kemble is now getting so intense that NR probably can't move fast enough to get it underway. As I understand it, Swindon-Kemble is now in Stage 1 of the 8-Stage GRIP program. Stage 1 covers the signing of agreements between NR and the Government on the project. The number of agreements to be signed for one of these projects is mind-boggling. Christian Wolmar estimates the cost could be in the order of 100million pounds if the historical problems with subsidence on the east side of the right-of-way has to be addressed. When Brunel and his engineer Stevenson first built the double line in 1843, the eastern (up) track sank a foot lower than the other track because of slippage, and trains in both directions had to temporarily use the down track. Brunel ordered that massive reinforcement be applied, and the eastern track was relaid. That lasted well for 125 years. The worry is that with no pressure on the east part of the right-of-way for the last 38 years, some of the compression may have eased and major work will be needed. I can't see this will be a problem, but it will have to be looked at. It will interesting to see how the 100million pounds compares to what the maintenance cost would have been for maintaining the second track in place for the last 38 years!!!

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#58 Railfriend

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Posted 20 December 2006 - 10:56 PM

sikejsudjek

Further to my post earlier today, I don't believe that the cost will be as high as 100million pounds for the Swindon-Kemble re-doubling. When the 10 miles of the Chiltern Line from Bicester to the junction with the Oxford-Banbury line was re-doubled a few years back, NR presented a bill to the Government of 60million pounds. That included a new bridge at the north end of the 10 miles for carrying the new down second track over the Oxford-Banbury tracks. The Government set up an enquiry to get an explanation from NR as to why cost overruns took the bill to 60million pounds, which was above the agreed price. Apparently, nobody from NR even bothered to show up to answer questions on the overrun.

Comparing the Bicester re-doubling with Swindon-Kemble, Bicester was about 10 miles while Swindon-Kemble is about 12 miles. Swindon-Kemble is, however, straightforward re-double tracking (assuming that subsidence isn't an issue), and unlike at the north end of the Bicester section, no new flyover has to be created. So I don't personally see that the cost of Swindon-Kemble will be any more than the Bicester work, i.e. 50-60million pounds or so. The Swindon-Kemble track was removed very quickly. I believe that the process used was to dismantle the 12 miles of up track using equipment on the down track, and with that completed, then in sections: to pile the ballast into the centre of the right-of-way, and to move the down track onto the new raised ballast. I've walked from Kemble to Swindon, crossing the single track, and you can see from road crossings that the single track is raised about 18 inches from what would have been the height of the double tracks. As you mention, once the right-of-way has been cleared for the width of the new double track, it should be relatively straightforward to do the reverse process, i.e. in sections, raise the present single track off the ballast, spread the ballast out, and lower the track onto the ballast, at the same time moving the track to the position of the old down track. Once that is completed, you then put back the up track using machinery operating from the down track. I can't see that this would cause such disruption that passenger trains couldn't keep operating on the section. Maybe weekend and night work. I find it very hard to see how this would cost 50million or more pounds, but I guess the machinery in use today is highly expensive and the work crews make very good salaries indeed. As you say, the cost involved is still far far less than building 12 miles of a major new road.

This Government has to get SERIOUS about rail travel if they want to take cars off the road and start giving a damn about the environment that our kids and grandkids will inherit. I still can't see anything serious being done to reduce car usage. And they seem hell-bent on putting in a third Heathrow runway and a second Stansted runway. Massive hypocrisy everywhere. Blair talks the green talk out of one side of his mouth, while out of the other side comes talk of runway extension and other polluting policies.

Railfriend

#59 alan

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Posted 22 December 2006 - 11:45 AM

Report in Gloucester Citizen of Monday 18 December. Headline : Princess refuses Royal treatment

Princess Anne rejected royal treatment when her train was delayed. The Princess Royal was on a First Great Western train to Cheltenham, which was two hours late after it had to stop due to points failure. Passengers were not allowed to leave the train but staff offered to open the doors so the Princess could finish her journey to Kemble. But according to passengers, Anne, ninth in line to the throne, said she wouldn't get off and insisted on waiting with them. She told staff: "What about these other people? I shouldn't get special treatment." She also refused a compensation form. A passenger said "Fair play to Anne. I've got a lot of respect for her for sticking it out with the rest of us."

I wonder what her father would have said in her position!

#60 alan

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Posted 22 December 2006 - 01:02 PM

Following on from Railfriends comments, BBC Radio 4's Today programme of 22 December 2006 reported that in a survey 51% of company directors of inward investing firms said that they chose Britain because of the good transport infrastructure. The current fog related trouble is impacting on Heathrow - and the rest of the rail and motorway network - because although jetliners can land in all weathers, bad weather means that each one has to have more space around it: thereby lowering the rate at which takeoffs and landings can be organised. In addition, Heathrow is running at 98% capacity of its two runways whilst Charles de Gaulle and Schipol have four and five runways respectively. I think that Britain should follow the German lead and have every airport linked by rail - so that internal flights can be reduced or abolished and any congested airport can be bypassed




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